Biden and Trump are set to debate. Here’s what their past performances looked like

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By SEUNG MIN KIM (Associated Press)

WASHINGTON (AP) — What people remember from Joe Biden and Donald Trump’s first debate four years ago are likely the interruptions, the shouting and the “will you shut up, man?”

Then-President Trump arrived at that first matchup in Cleveland seemingly determined to steamroll Biden at every turn, leaving the Democratic candidate exasperated and moderator Chris Wallace scrambling to regain control.

Now, in 2024, many of the rules insisted on this time by Biden’s team — and agreed to by the Trump campaign — are designed to minimize the potential of a chaotic rerun. Each candidate’s microphone will be muted, except when it’s his turn to speak. There will be no studio audience to chime in with hoots and jeers.

The second and final presidential debate of 2020, held in Nashville, Tennessee, was a far more subdued event than the first, aided by a mute button and participants who were perhaps chastened by terrible reviews from the first matchup, particularly for Trump.

But if the Biden-Trump debate this Thursday in Atlanta spirals into pandemonium, consider that past was prologue.

A look back at that first Biden-Trump faceoff on Sept. 29, 2020:

The debate begins to devolve

It started out calmly enough, with a brief exchange about the Supreme Court vacancy that had opened up days before with the sudden death of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. But the conversation turned contentious as the men tangled over health care and Trump’s handling of COVID-19.

The sparring over the pandemic was tense enough — with Biden telling Wallace at one point, “You’re not going to be able to shut him up.” Then Biden pivoted back to the court and abortion rights, triggering yet another outburst from Trump that continued to irritate the Democrat (and likely Wallace, and perhaps the viewing public).

“The point is that the president also is opposed to Roe v. Wade,” Biden said of Trump. “That’s on the ballot as well and the court, in the court, and so that’s also at stake right now. And so the election is all —”

“You don’t know what’s on the ballot. Why is it on the ballot?” Trump interrupted. “Why is it on the ballot? It’s not on the ballot.”

Trump would continue to interject until Biden showed his first real sign of irritation with his opponent and said: “Donald, would you just be quiet for a minute?”

But Trump didn’t relent, refusing to let Wallace question him about his Obamacare replacement plan without interruptions and taunting Biden that his primary election victory over Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders was “not by much” and that he “just lost the left” when he distanced himself from Sanders’ vision for health care.

“Folks,” Biden finally said, conveying his irritation to the audience, “do you have any idea what this clown’s doing?”

Biden: “Will you shut up, man?”

One clip replayed at length from the chaos in Cleveland was Biden finally snapping at Trump: “Will you shut up, man?”

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It came during a discussion over progressive proposals to overhaul Senate procedural rules or the Supreme Court itself — topics that have been tricky for an institutionalist such as Biden. The Democrat was, as he openly admitted, refusing to answer the question.

So Trump took matters into his own hands.

“Are you going to pack the court? Are you going to pack the court?” Trump demanded as Biden tried to make a case directly to the audience. Trump muttered that Biden didn’t want to answer the question.

“Why wouldn’t you answer that question? You want to put a lot of new Supreme Court justices. Radical left,” Trump concluded.

That’s when Biden — again — lost patience. “Will you shut up, man?”

But Trump — again — wouldn’t relent, forcing Wallace to cut the segment short and move on to a different topic. Biden lamented how unproductive the discussion was.

Trump insults Biden’s intelligence

The Republican also didn’t hesitate to get personal, from attacking Biden’s sole living son, Hunter, to mocking the Democrat’s academic credentials.

It seemed like Trump had been waiting for Biden to use any derivation of the word “smart” to go after his intelligence. So when Biden warned that more Americans would die from COVID-19 unless the president got smarter in his handling of the pandemic, Trump pounced.

“Did you use the word smart?” Trump said. “So you said you went to Delaware State, but you forgot the name of your college. You didn’t go to Delaware State. You graduated either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class.”

“Don’t ever use the word smart with me,” continued Trump, who graduated from the University of Pennsylvania. “Don’t ever use that word … Because you know what? There’s nothing smart about you, Joe.”

Biden received his undergraduate degree from the University of Delaware in Newark in 1965 and enrolled shortly thereafter at Syracuse University law school. He wasn’t known for his stellar grades; at Syracuse, he graduated 76th in a class of 85.

Trump nods to the Proud Boys

It was one of Trump’s most memorable moments that didn’t involve interrupting Biden.

Wallace pushed Trump to condemn white supremacists and militia groups, particularly as the Republican president spent so much of his energy denouncing so-called “Antifa” or far-left militant groups.

Trump responded that he was willing to do so, but never explicitly condemned right-wing extremist groups by name. When goaded by Biden to condemn the Proud Boys, one of such groups on the right, Trump seemingly did the opposite.

“Proud Boys, stand back and stand by,” Trump said. Those words, and the broader exchange, left some members of the neofascist group celebrating what they saw as an implicit approval from the president.

Trump was forced into clean-up duty one day later, saying he did not know who the Proud Boys were and adding that “whoever they are, they have to stand down. Let law enforcement do their work.”

The contentious exchange about Biden’s sons

Biden has long criticized Trump’s attitude toward American troops, including his reported comments that in 2018, he did not want to visit a U.S. military cemetery in France because he thought the deceased soldiers were “suckers” and “losers.”

“The way you talk about the military, the way you talk about them being losers and being, and, and, and just being suckers,” Biden said to Trump. Speaking of his older son, Beau, a veteran who died of brain cancer, Biden continued: “My son was in Iraq. He spent a year there. He got — he got the Bronze Star. He got the Conspicuous Service Medal. He was not a loser. He was a patriot.”

Trump swung back hard, taking aim at Biden’s younger son, Hunter, instead.

“Are you talking Hunter? Are you talking about Hunter?” Trump responded, continuing: “I don’t know Beau. I know Hunter. Hunter got thrown out of the military.”

Trump then claimed that Hunter Biden was dishonorably discharged, which Biden quickly refuted. Hunter Biden was administratively discharged — which is not a dishonorable discharge — from the Navy in 2014 after testing positive for cocaine.

“My son … like a lot of people we know at home had a drug problem. He’s overtaken it,” Biden said, adding: “I’m proud of my son.”

Biden commits to not declaring victory until the election is certified, Trump does not

During the final moments of the first debate, Wallace asked both candidates whether they would commit to not declaring victory until the election had been independently certified, as well as urging their respective supporters to stay calm.

Trump declined to do so, instead saying he would encourage his supporters to go watch the polls and musing about election fraud.

Biden, in sharp contrast, responded to the same question: “Yes.”

Trump, who would go on to lose the 2020 race, never conceded the election. Just over three months after the Cleveland debate, a mob of his supporters fueled by his election lies stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

Trudy Rubin: Ukraine’s head of military intelligence is behind Kyiv’s biggest victories this year. He sees no point in peace talks

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KYIV, Ukraine — There have been at least 10 Kremlin attempts to kill one of Ukraine’s most admired heroes, the legendary head of military intelligence, Kyrylo Budanov.

Russian agents have blown up his car. They even poisoned his wife.

She survived. He pledged revenge.

When I met the spy chief in his darkened office recently, during a rare interview with a foreign journalist, I asked whether the Russians are still trying to kill him. The poker-faced Budanov shrugged. “It’s normal,” he said.

Then, allowing himself a half-smile, the lieutenant general added: “Let’s put it this way: Since we are talking with you now, it means they are not succeeding.”

There are good reasons why the Kremlin will continue to try.

Budanov’s spy agency, known as HUR, has carried out some of Ukraine’s most stunning military successes, including long-range drone strikes inside Russian territory. Meanwhile, the agency’s Magura sea drones — a game-changing Ukrainian invention — have helped push most of the Russian fleet out of its main Black Sea harbor in occupied Crimea and back to ports on the Russian mainland.

These gains are probably Ukraine’s most important victories in the last year — and could lead to more surprising maritime successes to offset the stalemate on land.

HUR headquarters is located on an isolated peninsula that juts into the Dnieper River. Inside a grim, gray, low-rise block, Budanov’s office is barely lit. He prefers to operate in the shadows — in military operations as well as at his desk.

Behind that book- and paper-laden desk hangs a large painting of an owl sinking its claws into a bat. The HUR adopted the owl as its symbol in 2016, two years after Moscow invaded Crimea, to troll the Russians. The bat is the symbol of the special operations unit of Russia’s military intelligence agency.

On a nearby table, a set of polished metal chess pieces shines through the gloom, as if to warn that Budanov is poised to out-strategize Moscow.

Appointed to his post four years ago, the 38-year-old spymaster has been known to lead his men on daring raids into enemy territory. “He is a pirate who loves operations,” an admirer told me. He is also famous for his tight lips.

But in our interview, Budanov spoke openly about the need to expand drone attacks inside Russia and to make it impossible for Moscow to hold on to Crimea. And he was frank about the challenges Ukraine faces — including the continued need for U.S. weapons and the possibility of an election victory by Donald Trump.

Striking back

Asked whether Ukrainian troops could stop the current Russian offensive in the east, where Moscow has been making small but steady territorial gains, Budanov spoke plainly.

“The good news is that no Armageddon will emerge,” he told me. “The bad news is that the situation is quite difficult. It will remain like this for at least one month, and will not become easier.”

Moscow is expected to pound Ukraine as hard as it can in the lead-up to the 75th anniversary NATO summit in mid-July in Washington, and before the U.S. delivers more of the artillery shells and other critical supplies that were held up by Congress.

The Kremlin has been trying since the war began to take control of the entire eastern Donbas region. “We will do everything possible to prevent them, and to minimize the Russian successes,” Budanov said.

However, when I inquired whether Ukraine could hold one of the most hotly contested eastern towns, Chasiv Yar, which sits on high ground that bars a Russian advance across flatter steppes and toward large industrial cities, his reply was cryptic: “I will refrain from response.”

When I subsequently traveled to the Chasiv Yar area, the situation did not look good, and there was great bitterness among the troops over the many lives lost because Ukraine ran out of artillery shells and other vital supplies while Congress dawdled over whether to provide additional military aid.

Now, more artillery shells are arriving slowly, from the U.S. and Europe. “For sure, weapons delivery is faster than it was several months ago,” Budanov allowed, “but Ukraine’s needs are very high, which is why it has been strategically important for us to have the deliveries renewed. Still, there is a question of volume.”

Manpower is also a critical problem for Ukraine, with Moscow prepared to grind its troops up like meat while much smaller Ukraine is anxious to preserve its soldiers.

Budanov believes the answer to Russia’s superiority in manpower is battlefield technology, in which Ukraine has become a global leader, replacing humans on the battlefield whenever possible with new variants of drones and electronic warfare. “Technologies will have quite a significant meaning in this war,” he predicted, “so that we don’t fight the war until the last citizen’s left.”

Technology is key to one of Budanov’s most intensive projects: taking the war to Russia with long-range drones.

“I am a fan of this,” the intelligence chief said with an intensity that broke through his laconic style. “I have been advocating this since the very first days of the war, saying openly that so long as the war is contained on our territory, it will not affect Russia.

“That is why since spring 2022, we have started to conduct significant operations on Russian territory, and we will go further the more resources we have for this. And Russia has started to feel it.”

In other words, Vladimir Putin can no longer pretend to his people that this war doesn’t affect them.

“It is still not critical for Russia at this stage, but it has led to the situation when the average citizen in the European part of the Russian Federation for sure knows and feels that the war is ongoing and has experienced some of the explosions himself. It influences, even on a small scale now, their morale.”

Budanov later publicly confirmed that the night after my interview last week, Kyiv launched a swarm of at least 70 drones on Russia’s Morozovsk airfield, located about 150 miles from the front lines and home to dozens of Moscow’s vaunted Sukhoi Su-34 fighter bombers. HUR has also been involved in attacks by long-range Ukrainian Liutyi airplane drones that have destroyed dozens of Russian oil refineries.

A White House warning to Kyiv not to hit refineries makes no sense since they are a legitimate war target. These attacks may not turn the war around, the intel chief admitted, but he believes they can affect Russia’s economy “and psychological state,” which in turn “affects the military component.” HUR has announced that it considers any Russian military target within a 500-mile range fair game.

Shifting policy

I asked about the usefulness of President Joe Biden’s shift in policy to allow U.S. weapons to be used to hit sources of Russian fire just across the border from the major city of Kharkiv.

“It will ease our lives,” said Budanov, but he added that if Kyiv were permitted to use U.S. weaponry “to the whole so-called operational depth in Russia that we can reach, of course, it will be easier for us.”

Budanov believes that the Crimean Peninsula — captured by Moscow in 2014 and turned into a huge military base that controls most of Ukraine’s southern coast — can be cut off from resupply and forced into submission.

Gen. Ben Hodges, former commander of U.S. Army Europe, has long argued that this would be the key to putting Putin on the defensive. “I share the opinion of Gen. Hodges, absolutely,” said the Ukrainian spy chief. “So we need to do everything to implement it.”

HUR’s Ukrainian-made Magura drones have already been used to destroy several Russian ships and force them to relocate from Crimea. “They are already trapped near Novorossiysk port,” Budanov said. “We just need to make sure that all the remains of the fleet are pushed back to the territory of the Russian Federation. There have been no combat ships left in the Black Sea for a long time.”

Next step is to cut all resupply for Russian forces in Crimea, including Putin’s pet project, the Kerch Bridge.

Budanov has already been “arrested in absentia” by Moscow for his agency’s role in seriously damaging the bridge in 2022, apparently with a truck bomb. He considers that an honor.

He believes that long-range ATACMS missiles, which Biden finally delivered to Ukraine in recent months, could ultimately take out the bridge. Those who claim ATACMS aren’t powerful enough to do the job are mistaken, he said. “They should read the technical manuals. The only question is their quantities, but principally speaking, these missiles will allow us to fulfill such a mission.”

Budanov scoffs at the idea that Moscow would use tactical nuclear weapons if control of Crimea were threatened, a fear Putin constantly fans. The Ukrainian believes he understands Putin’s mindset and limitations.

“First of all, I know what is really happening out there. Secondly, I know the real characteristics of Russian nuclear weapons. What use would it have? We don’t have big concentrations of troops for which such nuclear weapons would be appropriate.

“And to break holes in our defense lines is possible with conventional means of warfare. Besides, using nuclear weapons would lead to big political risks for Putin.”

I would add that Putin’s redlines on Crimea have been crossed many times when Ukraine fired British missiles at bases there, and nothing has happened. If there is any chance to convince Putin he can’t win, it may lie with making Moscow’s hold on Crimea untenable.

As for Budanov, he sees no point in peace talks, because “we have no option but to get back what was occupied. Otherwise, the state of war will go on forever.”

A bigger problem may be Trump, who keeps repeating he would cut off military aid to Ukraine if reelected. Budanov remains sanguine at the prospect of a Trump win in November.

“I have a calm attitude to the possibility of Trump coming to power,” he said. “Your elections are very unpredictable. If you analyze his public speeches, he has changed his position several times. And the power of your system is that it doesn’t allow one individual to make decisions unilaterally.

“In the end, I believe in the USA and that we will reach victory together. And here I am stressing, together! This is what I would like to finish with.”

Indeed, as Ukrainian officials are starting to hedge their bets about a Trump win, I can’t help thinking that Budanov might be one Ukrainian who could appeal to Trump as a derring-do military figure who “wins” and can show exciting video of the new style of drone warfare.

Before I left, I asked Budanov: If I come back in a year, will things be better?

“I will refrain from replying,” he said. “This is a very philosophical question.”

His reply reminded me of the famous social media video in which he stares at the camera in silence for 32 seconds. Then, three words flash on the screen in Ukrainian: To be continued.

Trudy Rubin is a columnist and editorial-board member for The Philadelphia Inquirer, P.O. Box 8263, Philadelphia, Pa. 19101,. Her email address is trubin@phillynews.com

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Texas Republicans Put Trans, Nonbinary Teachers in the Crosshairs

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On April 19, Governor Greg Abbott spoke at the Young Conservatives of Texas gala at the Hilton Anatole in Dallas, voicing an opinion that would later become enshrined in the Texas Republican Party platform and spreading misinformation spawned by a far-right influencer whose posts have repeatedly incited threats against the subjects of her ire.

“Just up the street from where we are right now is Lewisville,” Abbott said. “They had a high school teacher who was a man who would go to school dressed as a woman in a dress, high heels, and makeup. Now, what do you think is going through the mind of the students in that classroom? Are they focusing on the subject this person is trying to teach? What I do know are these two things. This person, a man, dressing as a woman in a public high school in the State of Texas is trying to normalize the concept that this type of behavior is okay. This type of behavior is not okay, and this is the type of behavior that we want to make sure we stop in the State of Texas.”

Abbott was referring to Rachmad Tjachyadi, a Lewisville ISD public school teacher who resigned from his job in March amid social media outrage after a video circulated of him wearing a pink dress. Chaya Raichik, a right-wing social media personality known online as LibsOfTikTok, highlighted it in an inflammatory post that falsely claimed Tjachyadi has taught while “dressed in full drag and has a fetish for wearing women’s clothing.” Abbott promoted a post on X that featured the video shared by LibsOfTikTok.

In reality, Tjachyadi, a queer cisgender man, did not regularly dress as a woman or in drag while teaching. He was wearing a dress as a costume for a dress-up Spirit Day, something he had previously done without controversy. The school district’s investigation found Tjachyadi had not violated any of its policies. Tjachyadi confirmed these details to the Texas Observer but declined further comment. 

Nevertheless, Abbott made Tjachyadi out to be the prime example of why Texas needs to restrict transgender and gender-nonconforming people from serving as teachers—a talking point Abbott has linked to his push for school privatization.

“If you had a child in that classroom, would you want to be able to say, ‘Hey, wait a second. I’m not gonna send my child to that classroom’?” Abbott said. “Do you think you would have that right? You don’t in the State of Texas, because that right would mean that you would have school choice.”

A cartoon lawmaker standing behind a Lone Star podium tears a pride flag. (Drue Wagner for the Texas Observer)

After I originally reported Abbott’s comments at the gala on social media, several Republicans endorsed the governor’s call. “Perverts should not be teachers,” wrote Briscoe Cain, a GOP state representative from Deer Park, on X. In June, such a policy became part of the 2024 state GOP party platform: “We support the passage of legislation prohibiting school staff from engaging in sexualized drag activities, crossdressing, or transgenderism,” it reads.

These proposals come as Texas politicians are pushing back against a Biden administration effort to enhance Title IX civil rights protections for LGBTQ+ students. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and his peers in other states are finding some success fighting this initiative in the courts

It’s unclear exactly how Texas GOP leaders might enact a ban on transgender and gender-nonconforming teachers. Abbott and the party did not respond to questions for this story. Public schools already have dress codes for teachers that require appropriate and undistracting attire, but the Observer could not identify any that address gender expression. 

One possible model is the transphobic dress code recently imposed at the Texas Department of Agriculture (TDA) that requires employees to dress “in a manner consistent with their biological gender.” Such a policy could violate a 2020 Supreme Court decision, which found that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act protects against discrimination based on a worker’s sexual orientation or gender identity. As of mid-June, the TDA dress code has gone unchallenged in court.

“I don’t believe there is a way to pass legislation on this issue that wouldn’t be blatantly discriminatory and unconstitutional,” said Ash Hall, a strategist on LGBTQ+ Rights for the Texas ACLU. “They can try to pass legislation on this, but it would become a court battle pretty immediately, and I think it would go about as well for them as the drag ban has, which is to say, not well.”

What is clear is that some teachers’ lives would be upended should such legislation or policies be enacted. 

Danica Surman has been working as a middle social studies teacher in Galveston County for eight years. Now, she’s in the crosshairs of the state Republican Party. “I had an idea I was trans since I was in middle school, but I didn’t actually start transitioning until later life,” she told the Observer. “I didn’t actually come out at work until recently. This will be my second year as myself.”

Surman was dismayed to hear about Abbott’s comments. Regardless, she remains determined to be herself. “I’m not going to dress in a way that changes who I am,” she said. “Rather than causing me to change how I dress, because I can’t change who I am any more than Abbott can … it would cause me to have to look at leaving Texas.”

Surman doesn’t see her identity or gender expression as a distraction to her students. 

“I don’t think it’s very relevant for my job,” Surman said. “It helps to be empathetic to kids who might be dealing with feeling ostracized … but for the nuts and bolts of teaching, it really doesn’t have any relevance. I’m most interested in how do I get kids to care about history more, and how do I teach more effectively.”

Surman said her students generally perform above average and she hasn’t gotten a negative evaluation. “Trans teachers can be good teachers or bad teachers. They’re just teachers like anyone else.”

April Ortiz has been a math professor at a state university in Uvalde for 15 years. Her focus is preparing future primary school teachers. But now, she’s got other things to worry about.

“I came out as trans in March of 2023 through an article that I wrote for the Texas Observer,” Ortiz said. “Things have been okay for me locally. But, of course, I’m scared about what the state is possibly doing in the future.”

Ortiz is a highly involved member of her community. She used to write a column about math for a local newspaper. She helped start a program for kids to interact with professionals in the fields of math and science, and she’s active in her church. 

“I had a lot of concerns about coming out as trans,” Ortiz said. “It was something that I didn’t do lightly. I felt like I just needed to for my own survival.”

In the relatively conservative community of Uvalde, Ortiz has been pleasantly surprised by the reactions she’s received. “I’ve dealt with people seeming uncomfortable a little bit, but I have not gotten any hate outright,” Ortiz said. “I came out at work the same time I did publicly. I told my students: ‘This is a math class. There’s not much you really need to know about Dr. Ortiz, but I’m going to look different from now on. Here’s my name, here’s my pronouns, please respect them.’ And that was it. It brought home to me that this is not really a problem that the people have. It seems like a very artificial moral panic.”

Ortiz is not opposed to dress codes on principle. “Certainly a trans person could dress inappropriately,” Ortiz said. “But so could a cisgender person. Wearing a skirt is not a turn-on for me. It’s just my clothes.”

Even if the recent proposals by Abbott and the GOP never become law, the rhetoric has an impact, teachers say.

“A law doesn’t even have to be passed to have a stifling effect,” Surman said. “The proposal itself can make people afraid because they could be targeted or lose their job—which is fine if it’s about something you’re saying or doing, but it’s another thing when it’s about who you are.”

Saints win against Iowa Cubs in first game of season’s second half

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The Saints beat the Iowa Cubs 6-5 on the road Tuesday in Des Moines.

The Saints answered the Cubs’ two-run third inning with three runs in the 4th. When Iowa added three in the fifth, the Saints added another three in the 6th, ending the game’s scoring early.

Tuesday’s games began the second half of the season, with the Saints standing fifth in the Triple-A International league.

They meet Iowa for game two of the series on Wednesday at 12:08 p.m.

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